Abi's Story - Legalism To Love

Abi grew up in an unnamed, exclusive home church sect defined by its traveling "workers," raised with a little more room than most girls in the meetings thanks to her mother's quiet nonconformity, right down to the day a sister worker tried to confiscate her Harry Potter book and her mom told the woman plainly: I decide what my kid reads, not you.

As an adult, Abi started testing the legalism she'd inherited, keeping wine and a TV in the house, cutting and dyeing her hair, wearing pants, watching to see if anyone would say something. What she found was that holiness in the meetings had never really been about the heart. It was about the externals.

The deeper unraveling started with a memory: professing at ten years old not out of love, but out of sheer terror of hell, the kind that had her sobbing in her parents' room at 3am. That fear-based framework cracked wide open the night she finally understood that God hadn't built paradise to punish people. He built it for people to be loved in.

Abi and Lydia talk about the quieter cost of growing up "chosen": the subconscious superiority that gets handed to you right alongside the unworthiness, and how one phrase, image bearer, undid years of unconsciously writing off everyone outside the meetings as lost. She describes the night she realized how much judgment she'd been carrying without knowing it, and texting old friends who'd left the church just to apologize.

She and her husband left the meetings for good in September 2023, not long after the church's abuse revelations became public, a betrayal she says shook her to her core. She compares the decision to leave to standing at the edge of a pool, terrified to jump, trusting that God would catch her, and closes with a reminder that deconstruction doesn't have to mean doing it alone.

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SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello and welcome to Unconditioning Love, where I, Lydia, your host, guide you through the profound journey of deconstructing love to rediscover its unconditional essence. Join me as we explore stories of resilience, speaking with individuals from the LGBTQ community, those who have found love post-narcistic relationships, and courageous souls breaking free from high control religions. Together, let's unravel the layers of conditional love and embrace the boundless beauty of love without conditions.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Hello and welcome to today's episode. Today we have Abby on from South Carolina. Hi Abby and welcome.

unknown 0:42

Hi.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming today. So let's dive right in. Can you share a little bit about where you come from, the religion that you grew up in, and a little bit about your life as a child in the religion?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Sure. So I I mean, honestly, I feel like I got like the best experience of most of the people I know growing up in what we called meetings. But I grew up in a pretty um like reclusive, I guess is the word I would use. Um exclusive religious sect that had no name. And it was defined by its ministry that went in itinerant pairs. Um they were considered like a homeless ministry and they just traveled around staying in the homes of the members. And the church for us was based in the home. It was certainly not based in a church building, which was actually really looked down upon in the meetings. Um and we were kind of taught that it was that this format, this religious structure had been around since the time of Christ, that we were modeled after his original 12 disciples. So I grew up believing that um, that we were like the purest distillation of the first century church. Um there was a lot of like legalistic rules that went along with it. Things like um, especially women's attire, you were expected to wear skirts. Most women wore jean skirts, and you were typically women were typically expected to wear their hair up um in a bun. Um, so very conservative. But fortunately for me, and I I really don't know why my mom kind of bucked those traditions. Um, she herself didn't buck them as much. Like most of my memories of my mother, she had her hair up and she wore a skirt, but she didn't expect us girls to act that way. And I never was expected to dress that way at school. I was allowed, even in elementary school, was allowed to wear um pants, shorts, tank tops. Um so you I I looked no different than my peers at school. Um but I was ex I was not ex allowed to dress that way around church members. So, and honestly, to me, there was no um as a child, I didn't think anything of that. It was just what we did. I was like, oh, I dressed this way at school and this way at home. But um looking back, I can see how that's kind of confusing. But I just went along with it because I just trusted what my parents said. And I had a very loving childhood and um a lot of friends both at school and in the church. And um, but I will say that I feel like my experience was kind of a rare experience for girls growing up in the meetings. Most of the girls I know had a much stricter childhood. They were not allowed to do a lot of things like sports, date boys outside of the church or wear pants. Very a lot was there was a lot of control on their bodies, their appearances, their social interactions. And somehow just by my mom's wisdom, I just escaped that. And I'm very grateful that I escaped that. So I do think though that it I was able to like ignore some of the problems in the meetings because I wasn't personally experiencing them, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

But it totally makes sense. Yeah. Wow, that's so amazing. Your mom having that wisdom to see beyond the rules and to release those from how she reared her children, how she brought you guys up. That's really incredible. I have a very good thing. Yeah, it speaks loads of her too. Yeah. Um, and especially because, in the type of religion that we grow up in, when you do choose to do something differently like that, there sometimes is pushback from the people in the the church. And so that's amazing that she, you know, moved forward in what was her conviction. And that I mean, because obviously from the time that you're little, these things, as you're growing older, you carry them into adulthood with you. So um, that's amazing that that you had that.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah, one of the strongest memories I have of my mom when it comes to like parenting me in relation to like the rules of the church. Um, when I was in elementary school, was when Harry Potter was like first burst on the scene. And I was an avid reader. So my mom bought me the books because they were like the top young adult book. And I was sitting at my grandmother's house reading the first one, Sorcerer's Stone, and a sister worker, which is the the female ministers in the church. Um, she came up to me and said, Oh, how nice that you're reading. What are you reading? And innocent me, knowing nothing about like conservative views of Harry Potter, just thinking, Oh, this is a good book. Um, I said, Oh, it's Harry Potter. It's about a boy who finds out he's a wizard. Well, this lady, she was older, very strict. Um, she kind of like wigged out a little bit. She was like, Oh my goodness, you're reading about witchcraft and divination. And she took the book from me and went to my mother with it as if to like tell my mother I shouldn't be reading this, as if my mother wouldn't know what 10-year-old me was reading. Um, but I remember my mom saying, like my mother handed me back the book and said, I tell my kid what to read and I make those decisions for her, not you. And at the time, yeah, at the time I was like, that kind of went over my head. Um, but now looking back, I'm like, that was like a major my mom put up a major like barrier in when she did that. Like that was actually looking back, I realized that was actually very assertive and um like she was really exercising her autonomy as a mother in a very strict religious sect. So like yeah, I feel like that is the best distillation of my mom right there.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Oh, that's so amazing. Because in the church that we grew up in, the the workers, the pre the women preachers, men preachers, like all of them, um, they definitely had um say over a lot of things. And in a lot of homes, including my home, they definitely controlled what we did, right? So it's like the the words of the workers, you know, poured into the parents and how they chose to um to rear. And it's interesting because I had from a really young age, I had this shift in perspective from like everything that we were taught. And obviously, like I had that like going into school. So I was homeschooled most of my life, but in eighth grade, I um went into school for a little bit of time. And while I was there, um at one point, one of my friends, a guy friend of mine, he was messing with me. He's like, Lydia, you like dress like you're honest. Like it wasn't like in a rude way, it wasn't like I was getting made fun of, but he was just like kind of teasing me and he's like, Why is that? Do you do that for your religion? And I was like, No, I don't do it for my religion, I just do it because I like to wear skirts. Now, obviously, um at the time I did have to wear skirts, but I said that because I couldn't imagine like putting that on God, like that God would care whether I wore a skirt or wore pants. And I didn't want my friends, you know, the people my peers to think that I was that shallow, you know, to to believe that. So even though I did have to, like that was something that growing up I had to wear skirts, um, I still had that separation um from a young age of that it was just not my belief. It was definitely something that I had to do, but um, it wasn't something that I carried myself, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah. Well, I think that kind of shows how much we like internalized some of those rules without realizing it, because almost to the point that we were like, Yeah, we want this, like this is part of us. Like, even though we never chose it and we didn't um, I guess I just never, like as a young adult or a child, never well, of course, not as a child, but it took me a long time to like examine, do I actually want this? Like, is this actually what I think? Like, why if I don't think it's necessary, why do I do it? Like the clothing rules. And I did as an adult, I I just threw those out the window. I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And I'm just gonna see if anybody says anything. And for a long time, yeah. Um most people didn't say anything, but if if you do and it kind of well, if you do go against the rules of attire or like your home, like if you you're in the church, you're you're expected to not necessarily have a TV or anything what would be considered worldly. Um, you're certainly not expected to ever have like alcohol in your home. Um and so as an adult, I was like, well, you know what, this is just legalism. So, you know, if I had wine, I didn't, you know, desperately hide it when you know people from the church came over and we had a television that set in our living room and we didn't hide it. I wore pants, had my hair dyed, and I was like, I'm just gonna see if anyone says anything. And no one did, I didn't say anything. But looking back now that I have some distance from that church, I I realized that like we were treated differently because like the workers didn't come stay with us. We were never, even though we were like faithful church members attending church, um you know, believing in God, we never were asked to host a home church, what we call would call a meeting. Um and like obviously looking back, even though it wasn't explicitly stated, it was probably because we broke the rules, like we were barely hanging on.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah, and it's really interesting because there's a saying that people say in the church, and they say, Oh, those people are really hardy, they're really close to God. And that what what they mean by that is those people are following the rules to a T andor they have a lot of money to give to the workers, right? So usually there's like a very distinct, like when you think of like quote unquote hardy people, you think of you know, the women are very, very like I wouldn't say modest because modest is like moderate, right? And they're not modest, so it's like not modest, homely, yes, yeah, yes, and so more like that, like close to Amish looking, um, you know, like leggings, tights and the everything like the woman can't have any skin covering uh stuff showing, and um so it is interesting that when you kind of take away those layers and you see um like with the perspective that you have in your experience and seeing that now. Um, and it's for me and and my husband, we also started drinking wine because we, you know, it wasn't a conviction for us, and so we would have the wine out if the workers were there and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

And then I also say, and what's interesting is I remember my grandfather, he served in Italy during World War II, and he always said the in Italy, the church, like the meetings in Italy, wine is not forbidden. Like they use wine and can in their emblems, which is communion, um, and they regularly have table wine. So yeah, I mean, at least at least when he was in in Italy, they did that. So in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. I don't know about now, but in his time there they did. And so I always thought that was so interesting. I was like, well, then it can't, and like to me growing up knowing that, I was like, well, then it can't be a sin to just have wine because yeah, otherwise a whole country that you know wouldn't do it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Like and for me, for me, it was like the Bible because Jesus, well, Jesus drank and he turned, you know, water into wine. So I couldn't get behind that. I'm just like, I understand that some people, you know, maybe struggle with alcohol. That's just in general, not just in our church, but just in general, and it is important to be aware, you know, if I have a friend who has an experience of being an alcoholic, like I'm going to be respectful of that, right? But outside of that, like everything in moderation, and when you cut something off completely, like as you can see in any legalistic fundamentalist sect, what happens is you get the other extreme, and it can be very dangerous because you don't learn how to moderate, you don't learn how to kind of be in the middle. Um, and so so Ryan and I, we had some different things that we would do, like you know, we watched movies and we drank wine sometimes, and um and I also would wear pants and I cut my hair. And my hair wasn't like super short, but you know, like the length that it is now, I mean, short enough that it's it's almost too short to wear up, but you can like still kind of get it up. Yes. And um what I noticed is that I was treated the same, like they the the workers were still um kind to me and still like opened up their heart to me. And I found that really interesting because I was also around like once we moved to Paraguay, and around all of the folks here, and that I was able to live more like the way that I live, and they were not jumping into my life, like I was able to do that, but yes, there were all of these other people all around me who were not allowed to, like, if they did, like the workers were like, Oh, you know, we need to start thinking like maybe they like shouldn't be speaking in meeting or whatever. Like, it's it's like totally a different standard for some people versus others. And um, one person, whenever I was talking, like a someone who's like a mother figure to me that still is in the church, mentioned to me, she's like, Well, Lydia, it's because you know, these other people they don't understand um something about their walk with God is is very early on, and that if they um get like she I mean it was very much like there were excuses for the behavior, yeah. But for me, it just it did not sit well for me at all, like at all. And so that was definitely a big thing where I'm like, I can't like I have to stand up for like whenever I see someone else who's being persecuted for something that I'm doing, like I have to stand behind them. Um, so that was that was a big, a big reason for me.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah. So what's so interesting about that, like talking about wine and clothes, I feel like those things taught, like those rules taught us that holiness is all about externals. And like, well, as long as you don't partake of alcohol, well, then you are doing something holy. If you dress a certain way, well then you're doing something holy. When that's so the opposite of what the Bible actually says, like holiness is all internal, like it's all it's supposed to all be in, like all the work is supposed to be in your heart and in your mind, and then it comes out in your behavior, no, and it's not at no point is it like does Jesus ever say, like, you know, thou shalt wear stockings and thou shalt be pure? Like at no point does that happen. And but that's so like I guess I without realizing it, I grew up with a belief that that I could like build a holy life. And if I just built it just right, then you know, maybe I would be accepted by God when I died, maybe hopefully. Like, so it's just but maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, that that is the thing, right? Like it's like it you carry so much fear with you in that environment because it's all in your hands, and obviously our salvation is was never meant to be in our hands. Like, I believe that God created each person holy and and worthy, like you know, like when you were created, like you were created in his image, right? And and so the fact that we were brought up believing, like being taught both in the hymns and just all the time, like that we're not worthy, and that we do, you know, have to seek external validation for our worthiness. Um, it completely takes away the gift of Christ, like the actual gift of Christ. It's like, you know, and it's interesting to think about that, like in how we were raised. It really does take that away.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Well, something that like I remember trying to wrap my head around the fact that I just remember sitting in like gospel meetings and conventions thinking, why did God make the devil? Like, I remember that's what I thought. I thought, like, I don't know where I got that from, but I used to think, like, why did he make the devil? Like that just seems so like unfair. Why did he do that? And it wasn't until like recently in my adulthood that I realized he didn't, and that God he God structured a paradise and he made man and woman for like he he intended there to be a wonderful paradise for people because he and he literally created humanity to have something to love. Not we weren't even made to serve like necessarily to be like lackeys or servants, we were made to be children that were that are loved. And like and then yeah, and it's so like I I feel like the moment I realized that as an adult, it changed how I viewed God um and changed kind of how I viewed myself, that I wasn't like a like I feel like I had through meetings had had learned a lesson of my own worthlessness. And it wasn't not at all my parents teaching me that. My my parents showed me love and um taught me to be proud of myself, but somehow I like internalized these messages from the religion. And they're not at all like the I feel like it they're they're not at all like the actual message of Christ. You know, like obviously he like I believe that he did come to to help, like to help us and to save us, but it's not because we're like scabs, you know, it's like God loved us and wants us to be with him. Yeah, not yeah. And that that made that was a huge like the day that I realized that I I literally it was like the middle of the night and I was mulling everything over that I had been thinking about and like these revelations I had, personal revelations I had had. And when I when that clicked for me and I realized that for years I had misunderstood and misrepresented God, I literally just prayed a prayer of like apology. Like, I'm so sorry that I mislabeled you, misjudged you, misunderstood you for so long. And I just felt like overwhelming, like the feeling I got back from the spirit or whatever was just overwhelming love and acceptance. Like yeah, it was just like it was it was the equivalent of like if somebody came up behind you and like draped a blanket over your shoulders. Like it just sounded like that. That is so beautiful. Yeah, it was it, and like I would say from that point on, my like internal life kind of changed.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

So that's so beautiful, like that feeling of love. And I I know exactly what you're talking about because I've had moments of that there's just so much to unlearn from how we grew up and how we were raised, um, with the worthiness aspect. Um, and but it's like in an instant when we are in God's presence, and I truly fully believe that God is love, like at it's like primary aspect, like the or like the um what am I trying to say? You know, in if you had to bring God into just one word, it would be love, and not the love that we grew up with, because the love we grew up with had conditions on it. Right. Um, and that's why I think for people who are in that environment still, it's like actually almost unfathomable to imagine that type of love. Right. Like when when you're in the when you're in the meetings, it's hard to imagine that. It's hard to imagine that from your family. It's hard to imagine that from anyone, especially God, you know, because we we grow up knowing about God based on our parents and based on the people in our lives. And so the, you know, um knowing God as love and and like you mentioned, like that one moment where you you you realize like this is I I had it wrong and this is how God is he's love and and then just feeling him overwhelm you. I've had that, I mean I remember exactly where I was it was this one night and I um was feeling I I don't know I think probably just carrying some of that meeting guilt with me. And all of a sudden I I just felt in my heart like God say to me, I have a crown and that it's not coming off. Like I am his and it was just like such a a a deep meaningful message. And then that night I got on my phone and I like looked at the Bible app and it was like this verse about like he places a crown on my head. And I like you can't make that stuff up you know it was just like the crazy timing of that and seeing that and I just got full body goosebumps and just knowing like there's nothing I can can do or can't do that's going to take away God's love. Like his love is permanent. It's a part it's like and when you become a parent it helps you to understand that a little better you know yep yep because that's I mean like with your own children like you don't your child doesn't like earn your love um you just love them.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

It's just it's just in you to love them. And it's in honestly it's I I think it's in it's in children to love their parents too like children. Like I feel like my child like I was shocked at how much she loved me from the beginning just in her to just to love me. And it's like I feel like as a parent I'm constantly like wanting to be worthy of her love.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Like yeah I think that I think I like pray that so often I'm like Lord please please let me be worthy of this sweet little person that you gave me like she's such a good little soul but um yeah but you don't you don't make your children like earn your love like they just they just have it and yeah yeah it's innate yeah definitely um tell me about when you were in the meetings when you were younger like how old were you when you you know quote unquote professed or made your choice and what was going through your mind at that time in your personal relationship with God and how you viewed God then.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

So I was probably like nine or 10. I can't I can't quite remember how old I was but I think I was I was around that age like around 10. Um and sadly probably the primary motivation I remember was fear um and it was fear of hell that I was terrified that I would die and go to hell um at 10. And I distinctly remember um just laying in my bed at night and thinking about hell and thinking how you know if you don't profess and if you don't believe in God that you go to hell. And um just being sorry here's my dog just being like terrified that that would be what happened to me. And I it was so bad that I went into um my parents' room at probably like three o'clock in the morning and told them just sobbing at 10 years old and said you know I'm terrified that I'm gonna go to hell and of course they immediately were like oh my goodness like you're not gonna go to hell like like that's not gonna happen to you and then um that it was like a couple weeks later we had convention and they the workers asked is there anyone who wants to profess and I professed and I remember thinking well I'm not gonna go to hell no and like like that was like my whole that was like the extent of the decision making fear yeah and if I do this then I escape the scary thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Like but isn't it interesting like looking at the root like what motivated us in the meetings I mean I was the same way as a child like I would say my fear started I professed when I was eight I wanted to profess when I was seven but my mom said that I had to wait a year and I had to pray every time during um meeting like with my eyes closed in my mind and then I wrote down my testimony for a year and then so I did that for one year and then at eight I professed. But the fear didn't set in until nine and it's interesting because like when I was eight like I can remember certain messages from certain workers who like I was able to like I got the love. Like I I pulled out the love for the message and I just kind of left everything else. But then whenever I was nine I something shifted for me and I started to like become more sensitive of like the fear message and I mean it's pretty much in everything. And just I started having scrupilosity which is a form of OCD like religious OCD where I was unable to stop praying because I was afraid that if I stopped that you know like like that there were all of these people in my life and that I had to like try OS them in order for their salvation right and um and then like if we were watching a movie I just kept thinking like I mean it could be like a documentary because by the way we weren't allowed to watch very many movies. We were allowed to watch like black and white movies that were like really old or like documentaries pretty much um but even those while I was watching I just kept thinking like oh the Lord may return right now like I need to be ready. So there was just so much fear and it is really interesting to look at what happens like the outcome of something when it's driven by fear versus the outcome of something driven by love now that like we're out of the fear and um and for me having like getting to where I am now with with my walk with God um I did have to set the Bible aside for a while because yeah because of so many years of the way that they the workers taught us about the Bible from the time we were born you know and let's say we go at least two times a week sometimes we went three times a week to meetings. So I mean that's a like a lot of conditioning over and over. And so it does take a while. So for those who are listening to this who are like in it right now and you feel so guilty because you want to read the Bible but you also are so triggered by it you know it's okay to set that aside. That doesn't mean that doesn't detour your love for God. Like you can still have such a close relationship with God and you can also come back to the Bible once you have that space from the environment that you've left once you start having your own thoughts to yourself again because it does take time.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yes that for me too like I still right now there's certain books of the Bible or certain passages that I just can't read. Like I tried when last year when all of the sexual abuse revelations in that church came out I was like you know what I'm gonna I was still in the church at that point and I was like I'm gonna read the New Testament and um see just exactly like because I've been told all my life that we are just like the original apostles in the first century church. So I'm gonna read the New Testament and see if we actually line up. But um I thought well I'm gonna read it well before I finished the New Testament way more transpired and my husband and I left the church. But when I got to the epistles of John I was just trying to read them and I I could not because he talked so much about walking in truth and oh I rejoice that I and my children are you and something I rejoice that I and my children walk in the truth or something. And there's so many times that the truth is mentioned which obviously John the apostle is not talking about meanings because they did not exist when he was writing that he is talking about Christ truth like God's truth but um I still I can't like it's hard for me to read like I well I just don't I just don't read that epistle right now because it just every time I read it I get kind of like I have like a bot like a physical response to those phrases because they were preached so much. Yeah and yeah I think that's completely normal.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

So many of my friends that have stepped away um they a lot of them can't read their Bible right now and and some have found um that they can read like a different translation like something like the message that is the same content but it sounds so different that they're able to get the message without the triggering memorized words you know right yeah I think for me the part that is triggering is the part about like um women and how like especially in the not like Jesus never like I personally believe Jesus was a feminist and I think that when he talked about I'm going off on a tangent but I'm gonna come back around I'm gonna remember my my initial thought um but I believe that Jesus was a feminist like at the time when he mentioned you know that a man and a woman um should not get divorced at the time if uh a man and a woman got divorced it completely took away everything from the woman and she was left with nothing so by him creating that and saying that he was standing up for the women and saying hey you know as a man you can't just go through all of these different women and not think about the consequences of what happens to her when you leave her and obviously the times are different and I think that um a lot of the scripture especially like in the epistles and you know when Paul I think Paul uses a lot of of kind of verbiage that for me feels a little strong towards women right but also that like that was the time period at the time and I think that for me especially after leaving the environment of the meetings I now take a different approach to reading the Bible. I see it more as it's like an analogy for us. It is an analogy and there's so much truth in it and it is important for us to read it as an analogy not everything literally like you're not supposed to take everything so literally well and taking it out of its context like there's that what is it is that um there's that quote that says like words taking out taken out of context can can become pretext. Yeah and I feel like that happens so much especially Paul's verses about um adorning of the hair or whatever like adorning don't wear don't braid your hair and wear gold jewelry like I feel like our church was like oh okay check check like you know so which is like when you look into the history of that he was literally apparently he was literally talking about don't make poor like the church at that time was so diverse and society was so diverse you had Roman women meeting with you know very poor Jewish Christians and Roman women were known for having very elaborately braided hair that they put like gold in and he was basically just saying like hey don't make your don't make your fellow Christian uncomfortable like just consider who you're meet like who consider your brother kind of like um and but yet we took it to mean like oh braids bad jewelry bad like you know it's like yeah and it and again it was the verses were about relationship and and your heart not about your appearance but for us it was about appearance yeah everything was focused on the external and the majority of those things were on the women um and it took away the message of Christ like it and I mean honestly that was like at the root of why I left was just because it was no longer in alignment with the message of Christ. Like it was actually in opposition to the message of Christ because Jesus preached love and he also talked over and over about the importance of how we treat one another how we treat our neighbor and he gave the example of the neighbor as you know a Samaritan who meets this random person on the side of the road and at the time the Samaritans were not highly regarded um and so the fact that Jesus used the example and he was kind of like if you think about it like Jesus was the Samaritan in this example right like Jesus is the one that and and so like I mean he's our example of how to treat our brothers. And so I just love that because it teaches us that um our our neighbors and our brothers and sisters are the people around us who need something of us and we have it to give and they don't always usually they don't look like us they they probably don't worship the way that we do they they don't have the same belief system that we do and it doesn't matter like they are human and they are just as worthy as we are and that was other thing I just remembered this from um earlier one of the things that you were talking about and I totally like it was like I knew that there was something I needed to say but I completely forgot until just now and that is um you know we were talking about like the worthiness thing and how we grew up feeling so unworthy but in the same aspect we were also taught that the people who were in the meeting were like like exclusively better than everyone else. So it was this weird thing and in our psyche and in our human psychology when we carry this belief system with us it actually goes against who we are as humans because we were never meant to put ourselves on a pedestal above someone else um dangerous but it's so dangerous and it's also it actually causes a lot of harm in the body because it's very out of alignment with who we are in our values like every single human's values and so whether or not you realize that when you're living in it because I didn't realize it maybe every time that I was living in it but there was a point where I did realize it and I'm like oh snap like this is not going to you know like am I gonna continue down this road because even just simply by being here I'm supporting right um yeah and so and that's been something that even after leaving it's like you have to it's a lot of deconstruction of realizing and for me it's just like I have this prayer that God would remind me and show me that every single human no matter who they are no matter what they do for a living no matter where they live that they are just as worthy as I am and I am just as worthy as they are like you know it's like all in the same because that is not how we grew up.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

No and it's like it's so funny because I remember we we've we left I've we left officially in September 2023. So very recently but I started deconstructing all of this stuff probably in like March or May last year. And one of the things I realized that I had done my whole life was subconsciously not like overtly but like subconsciously in the back of my head I always was looking down on everyone else. Like I had this belief that I was saved and they were not that I was doing things I was part of the one true church and they were not um oh if only man these poor deceived people like oh these are lost souls like even and it and it really permeated my interactions with people like like people I knew that didn't attend my church there was always a part of me that was like reined in or held back because I was like oh I I shouldn't connect with them too much because they're lost and I'm not and if I if I spend too much time with them oh I might I might lose what I have you know and so it was very like um like a selfish way to view everybody. It was an elitist way to view everybody. And at the same time I was being taught a message of I'm not worthy stay humble but also you're the only one of the one of very few people that understand you found the narrow way. But don't step out of it or you could be just like and I remember somewhere last year as I was like deconstructing I I read a lot of like religious books and one of them I can't remember which one right now but one of them used the phrase image bearer. And the idea was every single every single human you come into contact with no matter what they're like no matter how you know how sick and pitiful they are no matter how powerful they are they are they every single human on this planet is an image bearer of God. So God's image is stamped on that person. And that makes them important and makes them worthy and that just like flipped a switch in my head and I I've noticed since leaving the church like it has absolutely affected how I interact with other people just even strangers at the grocery store like I don't yeah that that subconscious like icky feeling is just completely gone. And I didn't even realize I was carrying it until it was gone.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

You know like yeah that I would say is the the biggest gift that I have received since leaving and it like it makes me emotional thinking about it because just the amount of love all around us and like in humans our fellow humans you know and there have been so many people and relationships that I've formed since leaving with you know random strangers and with just beautiful humans that you know like our paths um just crossed at one point and when you are able to release that that belief that you know everyone else all of these other people are bad once you release that then all of a sudden you like you can mutually help one another but it's interesting because Jesus asked us to be lights in the world right and you cannot be a light towards someone else if you're carrying judgment because judgment literally like takes out the light. And it's it's also interesting because people who are listening if someone is listening to this and they're in the meetings they're probably saying to themselves but I'm not judging I'm I don't have judgment and it's interesting because it doesn't when you're in it sometimes like because I was there and and I've had to I've had to do a lot of forgiveness self-forgiveness and like going back in time in myself like in the meetings and just like holding her like that version of me and like releasing that guilt because once you realize the the judgment you cast without realizing it and that's the other thing is like I truly believe that in eternity like these things that we didn't realize that we're doing like God knows that you know so it's not it's a little different once you have the awareness of something like there's a saying when you know better you do better but when you don't realize that you're doing it you know it's like you can't fix it. Yeah you can't fix it right so it's it's not like something that you you can't beat yourself up for it. And I think that's also really important for us you know on the other side of this is just like remembering that because that's been helpful for me and just having so much like compassion and grace and forgiveness for myself in the way that I was when I was in the meetings.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

So when when I realized that I had been doing that um I woke up in the night and I was just it was like two o'clock in the morning and I was I literally just started sobbing because I was so ashamed. I'm sorry and I my husband woke up because I was crying obviously right beside him and and I told him I said I feel like a fool I feel like a fool and I've been a fool and you know I realized that like I like you said I had always felt like oh I don't I'm not judging others but the the fundamental thing about judging like the most fundamental way to judge is to look at someone and and condemn them to hell. And so I was looking at all these people and thinking they were lost souls because they weren't part of the narrow way, the one true way that I had that I grew up in and that's like I may not have been looking at them and thinking oh you're a terrible person. But I was looking at them and thinking they were lost. I was like in my mind, I was condemning them to a lost eternity to hell. And if that's not judging, then what is judging? Judging isn't just disliking somebody. Or, you know, that it's that is I think that is what it means when it says do not judge. Like the only person, the only being that can condemn anyone to a lost eternity is God because He He sees everything. I don't. And in like that moment, I like I knew right then all like the immediate thing I thought of was all these people I knew that either never went to meetings or had left meetings, well, especially people that left meetings. Like that was like another, like if you when you're in meetings, people that never knew about it are like a different type of lost than people who know and leave.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Like if you know and leave, well then you're like double damned.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

You're you know, yeah, you're like blatantly um leaving God, essentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

You're throwing away your salvation. Um and so I I picked up my phone and I immediately texted some people, some friends and family of mine that had left meetings, and I just immediately apologized because I was like, and and the the beautiful thing is is that every single person immediately forgave me. Like it's like they were just and so many of them said like that they had been praying for me to see it. Wow, so all these people that I had been judging were healing and in their healing praying for me. So if that's not humbling, I don't know what is, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Sorry, sorry for crying. No, don't don't worry at all. I I think it's so beautiful what you shared, and um, and that thank you for sharing that. Um, and I think that it will really resonate with a lot of people, it resonates with me. Um one part of my healing journey was to get my ears pierced, and part of that was because oh, I love it. Um, and part of that for me was because you know, we grew up hearing and and thinking that if a woman has pierced ears, then she's really lost. Like that was a sure sign that she's not with God. And so in the meetings growing up, if if we saw someone come in with earrings, it was just like oh instantly, you just yeah, you're oh I lost my ear pierce. Hold on. Um there we go. And so yeah, that was speaking of ears, yeah. Um I definitely use my hands whenever I talk, and sometimes I just like I use them too much. But anyway, and so I wanted to release that fully, even though like I knew like on a like on a conscious level, I knew that it's not bad and that God doesn't care. But because we grew up for so long hearing about that, I wanted to go ahead and get my ears pierced so that way every time I looked in the mirror, I could just like completely release that icky judgmental feelings towards other people out of myself. And I feel like I've done that in a lot of different aspects. Like marrying uh wearing makeup was another one for me that like growing up in Kentucky with the family that I grew up in, I know that like different people had kind of different upbringing, but for me, we weren't allowed to wear makeup, we didn't wear makeup, and we were constantly told that you know a woman's beauty is um is natural, and when you don't have natural beauty, I even was told that like when women wear makeup, that you know, they look like they're like they look when they're in the coffin, essentially. And so in my mind, when I was little, I connected makeup to dying, literally. Um, so I had to like clear all of that away. And it took me a little bit of time because at first, like you're you know, looking at yourself in the mirror and you see what you grew up hearing was bad. And so you have to just like kind of move forward in that. And and that's the thing about deconstruction, and I want to underline this for those who are listening who are like kind of newly on the path. Um, it can feel scary, and especially with us growing up hearing like that essentially, like we heard that our peace being taken away was also like connected to our comfort, which by the way, there are different things like God's peace, when he takes away our peace, that's something different than when we're doing something that is uncomfortable. And so it's really important to remember that in the deconstruction process, because there are going to be a lot of things that you gotta do that are very uncomfortable, but I can tell you on the other side of it, it's so worth it, and to be where I am now, where I truly can see like anyone, however they're living, whether they're in the meetings or not. And I just I love them. Like I just have so much love in my heart for every single soul.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Yeah, and you and I feel like I noticed like I noticed how many different like expressions of God there are in people, like whether it's even in songs, like I started noticing like bands I had listened to all through like high school and college, like that. Suddenly I noticed that they had religious songs that I had never noticed before. Or, you know, different I don't know, like it's just like I was taught that like worship only looked one way, and only one type of worship was correct. But it's like you start like since leaving, it's like I noticed the many different ways that humans are worshiping. And before I kind of looked down on those things because they weren't how I was raised to worship God. Um and I don't know, that's been like my husband and I both have commented on that, like noticing just like not looking down on things we see. That's like a sincere effort. And that's that's something so one of the first things we did when we started like questioning um my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, they they've been out of the meetings for like about three years, they left during COVID and um they invited us to their church. And before we would never have gone, we would have been like, oh no, like if we went, we would be swept up in a whirlwind of deceit and carried off or something. Um so we went with them and it was wonderful. And I remember listening to the music and and I looked around at everyone in this church building, and um I thought to myself, like, I had the very clear message um, these people are sincerely worshiping me. And who are you to look down on them? And I was like, okay, yes, sir, you know, like I won't do that again. It was you know, but it was a way for me to to do that. And you know, because we we're taught that all other churches are deceived and wrong, and because they don't have the two by two ministers, and yeah, and and and that's scary too, because so many people when they leave, I feel like they become like kind of spiritually homeless, and they don't have to be like yeah, like you don't have to cut yourself off from community, whatever that looks like for people. Yeah, but like we were raised with such a fear of connecting with other believers and for a reason, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Like we were we were raised that way so that it kept us in, or like if we did leave, that we wouldn't find another way. Um yeah, it was definitely very thought out. Um, and I do feel, yeah, I feel like there are two extremes to watch for. One is like what you just mentioned, um, of that like carrying so much fear because of the way that we grew up, that we aren't allowing ourselves to have that connection and community within a church that we are meant to have. And the other one is to go kind of like extreme again and find another church that is similar in the extreme. I mean, it's very, very common for people when they leave one something, you know, they go back into the energy of something similar. So just to make sure that when you are looking for that community, that you find a community where you have your thoughts to yourself and that you get to think freely for yourself. And that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

We took like a sabbatical, I feel like. Like when we stepped away for for several months, we we didn't do anything. Um, like my husband and I, we just had on Sundays, we would together sit down and pray and read and talk, and um so we didn't we didn't do anything for a while. Like I feel like we kind of needed now. I call it a detox. Yes, yeah, but it was so important too because I feel like in that time period I was just like like kind of just like breathing, you know, like just like resting and and knowing that because like I kind of had to take a step in faith to leave. Because you know, I didn't before all of the revelations of abuse came out, I you know, I had I truly that shocked me to the core. Like I never expected that. I I had bought in to the um our weird doctrine, like I had just bought into it completely. I believed it like to my core, like it's was it's probably still stamped on my phone professing. Um and like so last that learning all of those revelations was a major betrayal to me. And um having to realizing that God was calling me to leave was like a huge step in faith. I like I real what I compared it to was uh um you know when you're little and you're at the swimming pool and your dad's trying to get you to jump in the pool and you're convinced that you're gonna die if you jump in. Yeah. And but he's like, jump in, I'll catch you. And he he always catches you. You jump and he always catches you. But every time you're like, No, I can't do it. Um that's how it felt to leave. Like I had to jump, and God caught me. And I think that rest period was just like just it was so good for me because it was like just being held, like you jumped, I've got you, but just hang out here for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Oh, I love that analogy so much, and I truly feel the same. Like for me, the hymn that I professed to was I will say yes to Jesus. And um, the day that I knew that I was leaving was I I heard we were at convention, it was in um, I think August of 2019, and it was Seneca Convention, and um it was Saturday night, and that's when they like test the meeting to see if if people want to profess, like serve God in front of everyone. And so they tested the meeting and they were about to call the hymn, and I heard God say to my heart, Lydia, they're gonna choose your hymn. And this is me underlining that I'm asking you because the whole convention I had been convicted about it, and I was just like, I can't do this, this is my life. Like, we're so in, we're so in it. Ryan and I, we moved to Paraguay to have an open home for the workers, like we are in this, you know. And so, and it was Saturday night, and and I just heard they're gonna choose your hymn, and I'm calling you out, Lydia. I'm asking you to take my hand, and and I whenever they chose the hymn, I I mean I was just like, of course they chose like my hymn. And um, so that was just like my you know reassurance because I had been feeling so pressured, like by God, in my heart to leave. But like you said, it's so scary, it's like so freaking scary. And um, my husband and I also took a lot of time. Um, so right now I'm doing a meditation circle with a group of women on Sundays, and it's like just a beautiful space where we like come together and and um and meditate. And I have like different um like preachers that I listen to on podcasts on Sundays. So I like do my own thing when it comes to church, and then I also have this community with meditating. Um, and I think both Ryan and I have just needed time, like just to really deconstruct and and release all of that. And I don't know what the future looks like for us, but I know that right now this is like the perfect rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Um, but yeah, trust those steps to God, like uh like he's so clearly, like you just said, he so clearly like let you know when it was time to take a step. So there's no reason to think we won't do that again, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

Exactly, yeah. And I I know you've gotta go. Um, I just want to say one more thing, and that is that like I love the analogy of the grocery store and the different brands. So, like, let's say you're gonna buy pickles. Well, there are a bunch of different types of pickles, and you know, different people are gonna go and buy a different type of brand, you know, because they like different things, and it's the same same thing for us spiritually, like we all need different things, and God knows exactly what each soul needs, and that also can change, like because we're evolving constantly. So, what we needed today may not be what we need tomorrow. So it's really important just to surrender and to really trust those nudges in your heart when God speaks.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

I love I love that like so many times I've thought of the well, these verses meant something different in meeting, but now I think of them when Christ says there will come a time when people worship in spirit and in truth. So I I was raised thinking in truth, like go to meeting. Yeah, but like I think those verses are like so they're so powerful because like we do we worship in our like in our spirit. And everybody's so different. And I and I love that there's like something that's been so real to me lately is that you know God made us all so so different, and we all have so many different cultures that have just evolved over generations, and we all express love in different ways and we express joy in different ways. And why did we ever think that God doesn't have room for that? Like he made all that, you know, like so he knows like the joyfulness of our spirit, and like that's what he wants. And it's it's so funny to me that I ever thought that he cared about me wearing a jean skirt, you know, like when what he cares about is my heart, you know, and it's just it's very it is very freeing to know that, and it's also very like it frees you and it like keeps you all at the same time, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

It does make sense, and like your heart and your joy level, like God cares so much about our joy level, like for him, our joy level is like it's essentially like our health level. Like, how are we doing spiritually, you know? Like, and you can see that based on the joy that we have. And and I don't just mean I I don't know, because like I feel like in the meetings we heard about joy and it was this. I I I don't I don't know if you're gonna also resonate or like understand what I mean by this, but I feel like for me growing up hearing about joy, it was all this like you know, like through the pain, like we're gonna also have this joy that's constant, but it's it was always carried struggle, and I don't believe that God wants us to carry that struggle. I don't believe that God wants us to live in that fear and that negativity. Like, I believe that joy for God is like a totally different vibration than the joy that we grew up caring about in the meetings.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

I always interpreted it as I don't know if this is how it was meant, but the way I interpreted that was like enjoy going to meetings, like joys found in meetings. And I remember as a kid sometimes being like, I'm not enjoying this though, like you know, just but yeah, but yeah, like God didn't like God didn't design a world of struggle and woe. He designed Eden. And so like I've thought about that so many times. I'm like, God God doesn't want us to toil and struggle and be miserable, like like who, I mean, like nobody like nobody wants their children to do that. Like you don't want your children to go out and into life and everybody be like, man, that girl has it rough. Like, you know, like so yeah, I um yeah, I agree with you. I I don't think that the you know, struggle is like and not that you don't sometimes struggle, that's just part of that's just part of life, but um it's I don't think it's not like God's like I don't think that he just dishes out struggle for the love of struggle, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

Right now, he always in those moments when life throws us something, there's always something positive that can come from that, but but God really wants us to live in joy, and um yeah, and I love what you said about the heart, like that is the condition of our heart, and you know, where we're at there is so much more God's focus than anything external would ever be. Yep, Abby, thank you so much for coming on today. It has been such a lovely conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

I agree. Thank you for having me. I loved it so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

You have been listening to Unconditioning Love. I am Lydia, your host, and I ask that if you gained something from this podcast, even if it was just to help you to think a little bit more deeply about a concept, I ask that you would go onto iTunes and review this podcast. It's super, super helpful, guys, whenever you rate or review the podcast. Um, and another way that you can give back is through sharing this podcast. Share it with a friend, share it with someone who would also benefit from listening. You can also share it on your Instagram stories, and you can tag me at kini. And I'm gonna spell that out for you. It's k e N E Y dot L I D I A. I'll see you next week.